Amsterdam
Ian McEwan
WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD! This is a discussion amongst participants of ReadLiterature.Com's reading group. Since they have all read the book, they discuss it freely - including its twists, turns, and the ending. If you have also read the book, you might enjoy the comments of other readers. But if you haven't and intend to do so, then the following discussion might ruin it for you.
Consensus: 
Posted by Lale on 17/3/2002, 13:19:31
This was the first book I read by Ian McEwan. I loved it. I thought it was very creative, very original. I recommended it to Len, he read it and hated it. Just now I got an email from Dave saying that he has read this book and liked it a lot. So I think we now have the quarum to discuss it.
We really need Anna, however, to comment on the Dutch part of the novel.
Lale
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Posted by Anna van Gelderen on 17/3/2002, 13:39:02, in reply to "Amsterdam - Ian McEwan"
Being a dutiful girl, Anna will purchase and read the book as soon as possible and will let you know what she thinks. First, however, there's My Name Is Red by Orhan Pamuk to finish.
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Posted by len on 18/3/2002, 15:17:38, in reply to "Amsterdam - Ian McEwan"
>I recommended it to Len, he read it and hated it.
Lale considerably overstates my reaction. I enjoyed the book from the beginning but was very disappointed by the ending, which I found unbelievable. Nothing in the earlier pages suggests, foreshadows, implies, lays the groundwork for, etc., the bizarre denoument. I felt as if the author had hijacked his characters for dramatic effect. It was terribly clever and ironic and all that, it just didn't make any sense from what we already knew about the characters. If that was the author's intent, and I am supposed to conclude that people can go totally unhinged without any previous indications, then I had best retire to a cave with my cats, who seem to be far more reliable and trustworthy.
len.
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Posted by Lale on 21/3/2002, 12:22:16, in reply to "Re: Amsterdam - Ian McEwan"
: disappointed by the
: ending, which I found
: unbelievable.
I do agree that in real life it couldn't have happened. Even if some people had the idea, they couldn't have executed it that way. Something would have gone wrong with the champagne glasses exchange.
It is a story. It has a surprising climactic end. I loved it. I can't believe I have to defend unbelievable stories here, because it was I who had always said that the attraction of literary-fiction (at least for me) was the plausibility. That's why I don't like fantasy. But all you guys do. And here I am defending a fantasy to you.
: Nothing
: in the earlier pages
: suggests, foreshadows,
: implies, lays the
: groundwork for, etc.,
: the bizarre denoument.
: I felt as if the
: author had hijacked
: his characters for
: dramatic effect.
Even though I agree with all of this, it still worked for me. It had the "wow" effect on me.
: It
: was terribly clever
: and ironic and all
: that,
Exactly! That's why I loved it. It was terribly clever and ironic. I don't need anything else. I loved the idea, the originality. The never-done-before-ness of it. This kind of creativity inspires me. I want to be able to come up with things like that too. But I can't. Only some people can. And even those people, not always either. There wasn't any spectacular originality in Black Dogs, for instance.
The characters were not "ordinary" people, let's agree on that! That's why they were able to completely go berserk without any forewarning.
Lale
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Posted by len on 21/3/2002, 21:33:31, in reply to "Re: Amsterdam - Ian McEwan"
Lale writes:
>It is a story. It has a surprising climactic end. I loved it. I can't believe I have to defend unbelievable stories here, because it was I who had always said that the attraction of literary-fiction (at least for me) was the plausibility. That's why I don't like fantasy. But all you guys do. And here I am defending a fantasy to you.
But it's not a fantasy. The best fantasy is believable on its own terms; it is internally consistent. Amsterdam is not internally consistent. Up until the ending, everything is familiar and believable. Then, not one, but *two* characters do something completely unbelievable.
>I loved the idea, the originality. The never-done-before-ness of it. This kind of creativity inspires me.
There's a reason it's never been done before (though I suspect it has). It's so obvious. This isn't creativity, it's self indulgence.
len.
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Posted by Anna van Gelderen on 24/3/2002, 13:17:05, in reply to "Re: Amsterdam - Ian McEwan"
As for the Dutch angle: I hope very much that none of you think that the "euthanasia" scandal is in any way grounded in fact. It is pure fiction. Nothing even remotely like it ever happened over here. I am stressing this point, because I often get the impression that people on the other side of the Atlantic (not including any of the regular contributors of course) think that in the Netherlands everybody smokes marihuana, that all the high streets are riddled with prostitutes and that old folks are "euthanised" when they become too much of a burden on their children. All of this is nonsense.
Now to the book itself. First of all, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, so Lale, thanks for making me read it. McEwan is such a good writer, he puts down things so well and he knows how to get inside his characters. I agree with Lale that the ending was original, clever and ironic. But it is also absurd and implausible when you stop to think about it and there I am with Len. Another objection on my part is that the book lacks depth and complexity. I can see two moral dilemmas: should Vernon publish the photographs (no) and should Clive have come forward when he saw the man harassing the woman (yes). I did not find a lot to think about there, nothing in the book made me see anything in a new light and I don't think the novel will stay with me in the sense that I will keep thinking about it. It was very clever and very entertaining but nothing more. Period. I can see why the critics were somewhat disappointed: "Middle-brow fiction British style, strong on the surface, vapid at the center" (Kirkus Review).
PS I am still working on my piece for Black Dogs. Please have some more patience.
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Posted by Lale on 24/3/2002, 18:10:42, in reply to "Re: Amsterdam - Ian McEwan"
Having lived in four culturally very different countries and having friends from all over the world, I know how countries/cities can become infamous by isolated incidents or by exaggeration, how ill reputation can spread from one person's vision of that country (one movie, one book).
: the Netherlands
: everybody smokes
: marihuana, that all
: the high streets are
: riddled with
: prostitutes and that
There is indeed such an image of Amsterdam which I am not willing to buy until I see it for myself.
Paris has a lot of fiction circulated about it too. When I came here to live I was surprised to find how untrue most of those stories were. First of all Parisians are kind and friendly people. I haven't experienced anything to the contrary. They have always been nice to me and I have no reason to suspect that they are un-nice to other people. They are said to be snobbish and snubbish, well maybe a little of both, but then again, if I had such a pretty city, I'd be too.
: old folks are
: "euthanised"
: when they become too
: much of a burden on
: their children.
Anna, can you tell us about the truth behind this. There is a law to make it possible, right? Of course I do not imagine its practice to be anything like in the book, even finding a hired gun would be harder than that. But I want to know a little bit about how the law actually works.
In Canada this is a very controversial topic. We had a farmer kill his invalid daughter and he remained in jail for a very brief time, if at all. It was considered to be "mercy killing". I will never forget what the prosecutor said: "It is not open season for the invalid!".
However, I want to have the right to ask my doctor to please kindly kill me if I cannot function independently anymore. We do not have this in Canada, yet. I think it would be a nice thing to have, abuse notwithstanding.
One thing I liked in the book (although it was there to mock this sytem, not to support it) was the part where a friend asks a friend to arrange for his departure should he lose his reason and not be able to make that arrangement himself.
"... Just supposing I did get ill in a major way, like Molly, and I started to go downhill and make terrible mistakes, you know, errors of judgement, not knowing the names of things or who I was, that kind of thing. I'd like to know there was someone who'd help me to ..."
I was planning on asking Len to do this favour for me but since he didn't like the book, I am not going to ask him anymore ;-)
: think about there,
: nothing in the book
: made me see anything
: in a new light and I
This, I felt when I read about the postcard that was mailed a day too late. I was reminded of numerous events when a mis-timed word or action caused events or relationships to take on totally different directions. Sort of like fate. Something unintended or meant in another way can change the flow of happenstances from one set to another set.
: PS I am still working on
: my piece for Black
: Dogs. Please have some
: more patience.
Your reviews are always worth waiting for, so take your time. We're here.
Lale
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Posted by Anna van Gelderen on 24/3/2002, 18:59:59, in reply to "Re: Amsterdam - Ian McEwan"
: Anna, can you tell us
: about the truth behind
: this. There is a law
: to make it possible,
: right?
Actually, there is a provision in the penal code that says a doctor will not be prosecuted in case of euthanasia BUT ONLY UNDER VERY STRICT CONDITIONS. First: the person concerned has to have made it very clear that this is what he or she wants. Second: the person has to be suffering unbearable pain or otherwise have his/her quality of life very seriously impaired. Third: the doctor has to consult another doctor before going ahead. If all of these these conditions are not met the doctor will be prosecuted.
: However, I want to have
: the right to ask my
: doctor to please
: kindly kill me if I
: cannot function
: independently anymore.
: We do not have this in
: Canada, yet. I think
: it would be a nice
: thing to have, abuse
: notwithstanding.
I have exactly the same feeling and I know my mother does too. She has told me, so that I will not stop the doctor. I hope this will never come to pass, but I am sure I will respect her wish as I would wish for the same thing. And I am glad this is possible over here. It has always seemed humane to me.
As for Parisians: I agree that they are nice. I have been over several times now and they have always been friendly. You are lucky to be living in such a great city. By the way, should anyone happen to see for themselves what Amsterdam is really like, I would be happy to show them around :-)
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Posted by Dave on 26/3/2002, 6:09:26, in reply to "Re: Amsterdam - Ian McEwan"
I've always thought that the best writing bred the greatest diversity of opinion amongst its readers. For me, the words "you either love it or you hate it" are synonymous with "Really? I better read it and find out why!" I'm not a McEwan expert that's for sure, but after reading two of his books, he's definitely made me interested in reading more of him. He has not taken too much of my time to get to know him, for one thing. But secondly, you get some meaty story without having to squint your brain into some exquisite contortion. Listen to these randomly selected chapter beginnings in Amsterdam...
"An hour later Vernon's car..."
"Another three hours passed before..."
"As Clive had predicted, the melody was elusive..."
"What actually happened was this:"
"About the same time, three miles to the west..."
"Around five o'clock that afternoon..."
"For the first time in the day, Vernon..."
"That week the Prime Minister decided..."
"In her hurry to get off to work, Mandy..."
"There were moments in the early morning..."
"The following day the editor presided..."
"The flight was two hours late into Schipol airport."
You would have to be SERIOUSLY scatterbrained or distracted to get lost with such clear directions. Everything really moves along at a good pace. In McEwan's world, as in ours, there is always a clock ticking. Much of the dialogue gets cut off mid-sentence because the other guy butts in... I love that "happens in real life" quality that McEwan keeps alive in his books. A fast pace. Even in a book as brooding and chapterless as Black Dogs. Granted, one may be able to say that McEwan's plots could not sustain uh... 500 pages, but thankfully, he knows this too, and leaves these at an average of 160! I agree with the majority of readers (us) and reviewers that the ending of Amsterdam is abrupt, unlikely, and fairly unbelievable. Almost totally unbelievable that these two friends would resort to such drastic plans for each other. But I find it as comic as the accounts of their final hallucinations. I'm not even sure if it's MEANT to be taken seriously.
At any rate, I found two things to be especially brilliant. First, the quick reversal of fates for Vernon Halliday and Julian Garmony. The way Julian's "Party managers" turned the tables on the scandal... I found this fascinating, and every bit as ruthlessly orchestrated as Vernon's intentions. Are real politician's this savvy and quick? I guess so! Excellent damage control. I must remember this section, in case any of my own photos are ever discovered... (hey, that was TOTALLY a joke there O.K. kids?) Secondly, I think it was brilliant how that the two people who SHOULD have been most destroyed by the events of the book (Julian Garmony and George Lane) are the two who, strutting like the proverbial peacocks, end up casually passing judgment on everyone else. There is something brilliant about this. Here is where the "believable" returns to the story, because I sense that many similar conversations take place among the living, at funerals!
Amsterdam is not perfect. But it is a worthwhile glimpse into the way that ambition (both noble and ignoble) can displace the importance of relationship and duty. A funny look at a very unfunny situation.
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Posted by Lale on 26/3/2002, 13:06:31, in reply to "Re: Amsterdam - Ian McEwan"
Clive's likening of himself to Beethoven was truly comical. He suspects he is a genius. Then he feels awkward. Then he says to himself (about feeling The Greatness):
"Surely there had to be one first single moment of self-recognition, and surely it would always seem absurd."
The man thinks he is The Greatness itself and allows himself the feeling of absurdity because surely when you first realize that you are a genius, it would seem "absurd".
I loved that part.
Dave, I too get drawn to a book if people call it "love or hate", and I always suspect that I will be in the group who hated it. With Amsterdam, however, I had no preliminary contemplations. I was asked by my friends to read Ian McEwan, and I randomly picked this book, I may or may not have noticed the "winner of the booker prize" sticker on it.
Lale
ps: I wonder if/when Beethoven had his moment of realization of his own genius and if it felt absurd. He must have had the revelation before he said "There are a lot of princes but there is only one Beethoven!"
pps: A quote from Salvador Dali: "Every morning when I wake up I experience an exquisite joy - the joy of being Salvador Dali - and I ask myself in rapture what wonderful things this Salvador Dali is going to accomplish today."
ppps: Oscar Wilde, upon arriving to United States, at the customs: "I have nothing to declare but my genius!"
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Posted by Dave on 27/3/2002, 4:43:30, in reply to "Re: Amsterdam - Ian McEwan"
Lale: Today I was thinking about what I wrote yesterday about the "love it or hate it" thing. So it's neat to see you comment about it. Here's another way of saying what I was saying... some books when they are reviewed garner a lot of 2 stars (or hearts) and 5 stars. People generally don't have a mediocre opinion about the book. They are sort of polarized. I tend to be more drawn to these sort of books than ones that would have a solid 4 star rating.
Your quotes about Beethoven, Dali, and Wilde are now added to my collection. I have always been fascinated with how genius-creative-types perceive of themselves. I find the following words from the introspective genius Vincent Van Gogh to be especially thought-provoking.
He said:
"It is only too true that a lot of artists are mentally ill - it's a life which, to put it mildly, makes one an outsider. I'm alright when I completely immerse myself in work, but I'll always remain half crazy."
And
"I put my heart and soul into my work, and have half lost my mind in the process."
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